Hamza Fodderwala: The future of cybersecurity — 2024 retrospective, 2025 predictions and what founders need to know
Download MP3Welcome to Inside the Network. I'm Sid Trivedi.
Ross Haleliuk:I am Ross Haleliuk.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:And I am Mahendra Ramsingani. We have spent decades building, investing, and researching cybersecurity companies.
Sid Trivedi:On this podcast, we invite you to join us inside the network, where we bring the best founders, operators, and investors building the future of cyber.
Ross Haleliuk:We will talk about the hard parts of the founder journey. Launching companies, getting to product market fit, raising capital, and scaling to an exit.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:And, yes, we will also be talking about epic failures.
Sid Trivedi:But, Mahendra, we're here to make the founder journey easier.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:That is correct, Sid. But we cannot make it too much easier because startups are hard. And, of course, you already knew that.
Ross Haleliuk:Alright, you too. Enough let's get started with this week's episode.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:Before we dive into the program today, let me share a quick word about equity analysts. They are essentially the deep researchers of Wall Street publicly traded stocks, providing crucial insights that help investors make informed decisions about where to put their money. That analysis is particularly valuable for founders, especially ones who are just getting started as it helps you to chart your own trajectory. By understanding how public markets value technology companies, business models, and growth strategies, start up founders can benefit and better position their own companies for success. We're thrilled to have one of the top cybersecurity analysts with us today, Hamza Fodderwala, executive director at Morgan Stanley, where he leads the firm's cybersecurity equity courage.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:Hamza brings deep expertise in analyzing companies that are at the forefront of protecting our cyber digital world. Industry leaders like Palo Alto Networks, CrowdStrike, Fortinet and many more. Since joining Morgan Stanley's software team in 2016, Hamza has established himself as a leading voice in cybersecurity investment research. Following his earlier work in analysis at Susquehanna International Group, Hamza holds a bachelor's degree in economics from NYU. For all the entrepreneurs listening to our program today, Hamza will share some valuable insights into how Wall Street thinks about cybersecurity businesses, what metrics matter most, and how successful companies have continued to scale and create value.
Sid Trivedi:Welcome, Hamza, to Inside the Network.
Hamza Fodderwala:Thank you, Sid, Mahendra, and Ross for having me.
Sid Trivedi:We're excited to end out 2024 with you and talk a little bit about all the trends, all the things that are happening in the cybersecurity world. Maybe let's start with assessing customer patterns. And as you take a look back at 2024, what were the major customer patterns that you saw in cyber? And how do you think this will change as we go into the new year?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. It's a great question. I'd say, the major customer buying patterns, there were there were a few. You know, 2 really stood out. 1 is the trend towards vendor consolidation remained, you know, very strong.
Hamza Fodderwala:We saw this start really in in late 22, and we saw it really permeate through 23 and 24. So if you look at from the public market, right, which I cover, you look at the public cybersecurity stocks that are the perceived consolidators, the ones that have larger revenue scale, that have multiple products, the Palo Alto Networks, CrowdStrike, Fortinet, and others, they're trading at roughly 2x the valuation multiples on EV to sales relative to the ones that are the perceived point product vendors in the cybersecurity market. So that trend continues. The average enterprise today has over 50 different cybersecurity tools. The largest enterprises have, you know, sometimes 2, 300.
Hamza Fodderwala:So there's definitely a a willingness to bring that down. And the other area that started to really come up more, and I think you're starting to see some some buying around this, is around AI. Right? And specifically, security for AI. How do we secure some of these AI models as well as AI for security automation, which I think is gonna be a bigger theme into next year.
Ross Haleliuk:On the topic of AI, it is definitely the case. The Gen AI craze remained the number one topic for everybody, like every single event, like every single security leader is talking about it. Have you seen customers actually adopting those solutions? Or are we still at the stage where we are mostly exploring where gen AI security might fit? And how do you see that changing in 2025?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. Definitely. And, Ross, you've written a lot of great things about this, by the way. Anyone who isn't subscribed to Ross's newsletter should definitely, shameless plug for you, Ross, but definitely should should be on it. Look, I think it's early innings.
Hamza Fodderwala:I think, early on when we started talking about genera. AI, we're talking about genera. AI for security operations. And a lot of that was tied to okay. How do we take a lot of this redundancy, a lot of this manual labor outside of the security operation center, outside of your SOC?
Hamza Fodderwala:And a lot of that meant, okay, we need to replace the legacy SIEMs, whether that be an IBM or a Splunk has had pretty dominant market share in the space. So you're seeing companies like Palo Alto Networks, like CrowdStrike, like Microsoft go after this next gen SIEM, next gen security operations market. And I do think that's going to drive more meaningful dollars. You know, Palo Alto Networks talks about Cortex, which is their next gen SIM opportunity, their AI for security automation, if you will, that being their next, you know, $5,000,000,000 opportunity over time in terms of ARR. And I think that's gonna be a a major product cycle for them, especially since their partnership slash acquisition of IBM.
Hamza Fodderwala:Microsoft, you know, talked about Azure Sentinel, which is their next gen SIEM being 1,500,000,000 ARR. So I do think you're gonna see a lot more focus on AI for security operations. You know, I should mention CrowdStrike as well with LogScale. But I think what was interesting earlier this year at RSA, we started to hear a lot more about okay. Hold on.
Hamza Fodderwala:AI for security automation sounds great, but how do we actually do security for AI? How do we actually enable this technology within our organization? How do we govern it? How do we classify what's sensitive and what's not? How do we prevent sensitive data leakage?
Hamza Fodderwala:And so you're seeing a lot more investment in that area. We do a CIO survey every quarter, and the number one hurdle for adopting, you know, next gen AI ML capability within an organization is data security. Right? How do I prevent an LLM for querying sensitive data? So I think, that is gonna be, I think the most immediate opportunity, but the bigger opportunity, I think, is going to be AI for security automation.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:No. Thank you, Hamza. When you look at the AI and how the security operations are getting, shaped up, it's a fascinating, trend. And Sid and I have seen a lot of startups coming up with, you know, agentification, how agents and, sort of this new wave of technologies can be used to improve the SOC. But if you zoom out a little bit, a lot of startups don't necessarily appreciate the role of resellers.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:And when you look at the world from your vantage point, especially when you look at the large players, they have a very elegant way of partnering with resellers. I mean, this is a business of trust. The resellers play a very important role in the last mile. Give us some insights. Help our audience understand how the reseller side of the market is shaping up.
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. It it's a great point, Mahendra. So the average cybersecurity vendor will generate somewhere between 70 to 90% of their sales from the channel community. Now some of that is, you know, resellers or value added resellers. Some of that increasingly now is MSSPs, the managed security service partners, which will oftentimes help operationalize a lot of these technologies, which is really important.
Hamza Fodderwala:And so, you know, these partners are really the last mile when it comes to cybersecurity because it's not just about selling you, you know, a bunch of software and then telling the customer, okay, you figure it out. You know, you do need to have a partner to help enable this technology and also give you leverage from a go to market perspective. So I think, you know, as far as the start up community is concerned, really try to engage these partners early on. A lot of these, you know, channel partners, particularly within the MSSP community, you'll find these folks are very forward thinking. These are folks who worked in industry themselves.
Hamza Fodderwala:You know, they wanna partner with the cutting edge technologies. And, the earlier you can build those relationships, you know, the better it is. And I think, the industry, the reseller industry, if you will, is going through a bit of consolidation. So that's why it's really important to have, you know, these MSSP capabilities, you know, be able to add value on top of just reselling that becomes more and more important. So their margins are under pressure.
Hamza Fodderwala:Certainly, they're looking to offer more services on top of just reselling. So if you're a a start up company and you've reached a certain scale and you feel like you have a product that's, you know, very much in demand, you know, partner with these folks early on, have those discussions early on, and I think it'll pay dividends down the line.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:You know, you make a great point, Hamza, about building these relationships early on. If I put myself in the shoes of a founder, you know, they are young. They don't have necessarily the the size and the scale. What's your advice? What kind of thresholds do you see in, let's say, revenues before the partners get excited?
Mahendra Ramsinghani:You know, obviously, there's the side of innovation. They want the cool new products, but they also wanna say, hey. Are you stable? Are you able to serve our community and our geography well? Do you have the infrastructure to help our teams to sell better?
Mahendra Ramsinghani:So what kind of trade offs do you see in in that dynamic?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. I mean, I'd say, generally speaking, you start to you you start to really catch on with the channel reseller community once you once you approach that 100,000,000 of ARR or more. But you'd be surprised, I think, there are a lot of smaller companies. I'm thinking of companies within the data security and posture management space, for example, or the application security space, right now. There's a lot of interest among the channel community in those areas because that's what their customers are asking for.
Hamza Fodderwala:So it really depends. Right? There are some companies where okay. If it's an established market within cybersecurity that you feel like you have a better mouse trap in, then certainly, you know, you wanna curate some demand. You wanna get to the, you know, 9 figures in ARR before you really start to engage the reseller community in a big way.
Hamza Fodderwala:But I think if you have a a product that is very much missing in the market, and I think there's a lot of white space again in application security and data security, I think engaging with the partner community early on even at 10, 20, 30,000,000 of error, which we have started to see, I think, can pay dividends down the line as well because these are technologies that oftentimes are tied to broader initiatives. Right? So data security, for example, may be aligned with the broader AI transformation initiative. Right? And so the partner is coming in, the system integrator is coming in to the to the customer and trying to help the customer deploy these technologies, but they don't really, you know, know how to do this securely.
Hamza Fodderwala:That's why we're bringing in a data security vendor might be helpful even if it is a subscale vendor. If they have good backing, good investors, then they can be viewed as a strategic partner longer term.
Ross Haleliuk:Hamzah, when you're talking about the need to engage with the resellers and and MSSPs and so on and so forth, How is it related to the need to engage with industry analysts? Like, which come first? Should startups at first start approaching Gartner and and the likes, or should they be working on the reseller side? Or is this something that happens in parallel where one side feeds feeds into the other? Like, how are you seeing that?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. I think ultimately, if you if you have a product that has good demand, good backing, ultimately, all that will come. You know? And, I just think it's a matter of inertia. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:So once you start to gain that momentum in terms of your product go to market, which again, the the channel community is a big part of. Right? Whether that's resellers, MSSPs, marketplaces, which are becoming more and more important. Getting that momentum, right, I think should be the primary focus. And then adjacent to that, right, and over time, you'll start to see the analyst community start to take notice and start to, you know, mention your company in their various reports as well.
Sid Trivedi:I wanna move things a little bit further and talk about the public equity markets that you cover so acutely. Between 2022 and today, we've had just 4 software IPOs. We just had a new software IPO in service Titan, which just went public. Looks like the stock has really popped. So hopefully, it's a sign of of more positive kind of tailwinds.
Sid Trivedi:But what factors could help open up the public markets for new issuances at a much larger scale? And when you look at the different cybersecurity private cybersecurity companies that are out there, who do you think is the most likely to go public next?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. It's a great question. I'll try to keep a high level rather than mentioning any specific company, but I I would say it does feel like the public markets are open again. If you look at, you know, the average software stock over last year is up almost 30%. The average cybersecurity company over last year has been up 40 to 50%.
Hamza Fodderwala:So, you know, we're certainly seeing more appetite to invest in software as well as cybersecurity. Cybersecurity has been an area of more defensible growth. Right? So not only are you participating in a lot of the secular tailwinds around AI, cloud, the expansion of the attack surface area, but these are also very resilient companies in terms of this is their last area of your IT budget to get cut. So I think we are seeing appetite for new public issuances again.
Hamza Fodderwala:Looks like there's a general growth scarcity in the market. I think right now, you know, if we look at 20 25, I can't think of 1 company that is going to grow 30%, at least, you know, guide to 30% initially. So I think having, you know, new companies within the IPO market that are that are growing faster, that are aligned to a lot of secular tailwinds in the market, whether it's AI or cyber. I do think there is a growing appetite for that. And, you know, we've had some IPOs recently, which have done quite well in the last 6 months.
Hamza Fodderwala:So as far as going forward, I think, you know, in general, I think if you're a company with 250 to 500,000,000 in ARR and you're growing, I think, you know, north of 30%, especially within that cohort. Now if you get to 500,000,000 to a 1000000000 of ARR, right, the growth rates become different. I'd say you wanna be growing north of 20 in that cohort. I do think that there's going to be demand, you know, for those types of assets again. It's gonna be harder to bring public those 100,000,000 plus ARR companies, right, that are more subscale, that don't really have a, near term path to profitability.
Hamza Fodderwala:I don't think we're quite there yet. But the 2 50 to 500, 30% plus type growers with a path to profitability in 12 to 18 months time frame. I do think that there's an appetite to, invest in those companies again because there's so much growth scarcity in the public market again. Like, I can't think of 1 company that's that's gonna guide to 30 percent revenue growth in 2025.
Sid Trivedi:You and me both. I I agree with this point around, you know, the lack of companies that are 30% plus growers on an annual basis. Just more broadly on that topic, though, I mean, the number of very, very highly valued large scale unicorn or deca con companies that are over a 100,000,000 of ARR that haven't yet gone public has now really, really gotten to to a large enough scale. And I'm just curious on your opinion. Do you think that these numbers that we have figured out in the public markets of 250,000,000 plus ARR growers and anything below that, it's very hard to go public.
Sid Trivedi:Do you think that's fair for the public markets? I mean, the average person, the average, you know, just investor can't invest in a whole bunch of high growth companies until they become really, really scaled. I mean, this is very different to what things were like 10 years ago, certainly what things were like 20 years ago.
Hamza Fodderwala:And there's no shortage of capital in the private market these days, it seems. You know, I think it's if it's a company that is I think 250,000,000 in ARR is at the low end, that would be harder, if you will. But if it's a company that is disruptive, that is aligned to a a a secular theme that isn't available right now in the public market. So if you had a AI security company or a pure play vendor in the cloud security space, for example, where maybe there isn't an avenue to invest in the public market, that would be interesting. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:But there'd have to be some scarcity value if you're at 250,000,000 plus. I think once you get to 500 to a 1000000000 of ARR and you're still growing 20, 30% plus, that's where the need to have that scarcity value perhaps diminishes. Right? You can be the 2nd or third player in your category. If you're a disruptor and you're gaining market share, most likely you will get a multiple that is comparable or maybe a slight premium to the peer group that's already public.
Hamza Fodderwala:So I think 250 to 500 scarcity value would really matter. Right? If it's something that's really unique that isn't addressed by public vendors, I think you can see some appetite, for those types of assets. But I think, outside of that, it will be it will be tougher. That's where you do have to get to a bigger scale, 500 to a 1000000000 of ARR.
Sid Trivedi:I guess my question is more, do you think that's fair for the average, you know, stockholder to not have access to those high growth players who are very much focused on the private markets? There there isn't capital from the private markets.
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. I mean, I think if you are a company that's in an existing category, let's just say, for example, in in SaaS, secure access service edge, which is, you know, part of the part of the network security market, you know, there are companies you can invest in. Right? You can invest in a Zscaler or a Palo Alto networks or what have you. Cloudflare comes to mind as well.
Hamza Fodderwala:Now there are a lot of great next gen Sassy players in the private market too that I think some of them, you know, eventually will reach that scale. But I think, you know, there are options in the public market, if you will, to invest behind those themes that, you know, are also available in the in the private market. I think, again, it it really depends on the category. I think a question of fairness is a good one. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:We want investors to have more access to the growth that we're seeing in America, whether it be within cybersecurity or elsewhere. But I do think there are many companies in the in the public markets today that are investing and really align with a lot of these themes.
Ross Haleliuk:Hamza, this year, we saw the creation of the first $100,000,000,000 plus market cap cybersecurity company in the industry, that being Palo Alto Networks. And it looks like CrowdStrike is not, not far behind. A lot has been said during this year about the trend, of platformization or or industry consolidation or whichever language you choose to use. How much do you think that holds as you evaluate public companies' earnings result this year and also looking into the 2025, estimates and forecasts?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. And it it's pretty amazing that, you know, CrowdStrike still is not very far behind from that goal despite obviously the incident that they had in mid July. So kudos to them and and that team for doing a great job in their response. Yeah. I think it's gonna matter a lot.
Hamza Fodderwala:I think the fact is it's you have Palo Alto Networks, which have announced our platformization initiative earlier this year. And then keep in mind, CrowdStrike, after this outage, also announced, you know, an effort, which they call Falcon Flex, and now that's being broadened out into these customer commitment packages. Effectively, both these companies, you know, have been given a hall pass, if you will, for the next 12 to 18 months to discount, some might say price bomb the market. So if you're competing with a Palo Alto Networks or CrowdStrike, it has gotten much more difficult. The Street, analysts like myself have have have cut their numbers on both these companies quite a bit to allow them to to to do this stuff.
Hamza Fodderwala:And so I think, if you're competing against one of these larger scale companies that are able to discount more aggressively now that had the scale to do so, I think it's gonna become harder. So what that means is if you're a smaller company, you know, really making sure that, you know, one, not only you have a a great product, but you're solving a need that these big platforms are not. Right? They're not gonna be able to solve everything for everybody. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:So a great example I can think of is with an email security. Right? These platform players, for the most part, have not focused on that area because the view was, well, Microsoft is just gonna dominate this space. And we've seen great companies like Abnormal, even Proofpoint, who's out there as well, you know, come out with some great products here. Checkpoint even, which recently invested in a company called Avanade a few years ago, talked about getting to a 100,000,000 of ARR in their email security products.
Hamza Fodderwala:So I think, you know, making sure you have products and are solving problems that these that these companies aren't is is first and foremost. And I think also once you get to a certain scale, having that multiproduct vision of your own. Right? You it may not be there necessarily today, but engaging with your customers, with your strategic partners, and and aligning them on a future road map saying, hey. Look.
Hamza Fodderwala:You know, we do these two things really well, or we do this one thing really well. And we're gonna focus on doing that one thing really well, but we have a broader vision here. Right? We wanna we want you to partner with us and see where this vision goes and, you know, see how we can deliver this innovation to you. So I think it's about, 1, solving problems and having a product that, you know, these other big sort of platform vendors are not gonna be able to focus on as much.
Hamza Fodderwala:And then 2, also engaging with your customers, engaging with your strategic partners early on, having that roadmap, that vision, and that they can see, okay, you know what? This company is gonna be an even better version of the existing platform players that I might be using today.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:Speaking of platforms and platformization, I think that's sort of the buzzword. Going back to the earlier comment you made about consolidation, I think that's clearly one industry trend, Hamza. Let's zoom out a little bit. You know, in a few weeks, a new president will step in. That changes sort of the geopolitical dynamics.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:On one side, you have China. You have Russia. In fact, one of our earlier guests on the podcast, Dmitry Alperovitch, has written a fascinating book about it, which, by the way, in 2024 has been named one of the best books on this topic. So you have this whole geopolitical dynamic that is going to shift. Okay.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:And of course, you also have Israel. What challenges do you see in our our sector play out as a result of that?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. Unfortunately, the world is going to become more challenging from a geopolitical standpoint. Whoever is president, right, and and whoever is president, you know, obviously, you know, president-elect Trump, we wish them, you know, all the best in in solving these challenges. But, you know, certainly, the world's gonna get the world has become more dangerous from a cyber perspective and otherwise. You know, I think, you know, for us, you're looking at a lot of the enterprise security companies.
Hamza Fodderwala:I don't think this necessarily changes anything. Right? I mean, the fact is, you know, we're gonna continue to see growth in ransomware attacks. Some might say that that that may even be be peaking right now if you look at some of the more recent data. But I think, you know, nation states are gonna continue to be a big driver.
Hamza Fodderwala:You also have cyber criminals that are gonna continue to be big drivers of cyber demand. But I think, you know, more domestically, you know, this, these new initiatives around the Department of Government Efficiency or or Doge and the willingness to reduce the size of the federal government, you know, whatever you think about that is probably gonna have some headwinds short term for a lot of enterprise software and cybersecurity vendors. And we actually recently wrote about this in our 2025 cybersecurity outlook. But, you know, you look at the typical cyber security company that's public today. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:And I think it probably goes through for a lot of private vendors, but they're generating anywhere from 7 to 8% of their revenue from the US public sector. Right? And and some of the larger vendors, like Apollo Alta Networks or Tenable, Zscaler, and others, you know, in some instances, they generate 10% plus of their revenue from the US public sector. And federal government alone spends over $25,000,000,000 a year on, on cybersecurity. So I think, the fact that you wanna reduce the size of the federal government and in some instances, there have been reports around, you know, should we downsize or eliminate CISA entirely or should we, you know, take out a $1,000,000,000,000 from the federal budget over time?
Hamza Fodderwala:You know, that's gonna have some impact on IT and cyber budgets, and I think is going to be a headwind in 2025. Longer term, right, if the government can become more efficient, use more technology, perhaps it could be a tailwind. But short term, I think, it's a headwind. And then also a big driver of of cybersecurity demand has been, you know, a favorable regulatory backdrop. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:When you think about all the recent rulings around from the SEC around disclosing cyber breaches, around having better cyber practices, you know, the question's gonna be with this new administration, with the new SEC head, are we gonna see the same, you know, types of regulations and and the enforcement around these regulations going forward that we did in recent years? So I think the fiscal backdrop, the regulatory backdrop, there's some uncertainty there, and I think the general the view is right now perhaps those, those backdrops are not gonna be as accommodative for cybersecurity spend as they have been in recent years.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:No. You make great points there, Hamza, both on the fiscal and the regulatory standpoint. And also from the fact that, the ransomware angle, or call it attacking, this continues to escalate in some ways on how the relationships evolve. If you just take a counterpoint, you know, this is, of course, rumored now, but Trey Stevens, who is a partner at Founders Fund, has been active investor in cybersecurity companies like Expanse that got acquired by Palo Alto Networks. He is, I think, on the board of Anduril, which which is a kind of a security from a different angle, if you will.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:He's rumored to be the 2nd, you know, highest ranking position at the Pentagon undersecretary of defense. And this if this happens, this could be the first time that somebody who wears a VC hat and has been a cybersecurity investor is, squarely in the center of, a very important role in national security and the department of defense. Do you see new opportunities open up as a result of, some of these dimensions playing out?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. I think the fact that you're seeing more folks from, you know, Silicon Valley and the technology community get involved in public policy and and and Washington certainly is favorable for tech longer term. And so to the extent that, you know, you do have some folks from the cyber VC community advising the DOD and and the president, I think those are those are good things. I would say if we look at the the cyber budget today, right, in the federal government, it's about $25,000,000,000 annually products and services. Half of that is DOD, you know, half of that is civilian based on the the numbers that we have.
Hamza Fodderwala:I'd say DOD is probably safe. Right? I think, this incoming administration is known for wanting a strong military. It's a civilian portion that you worry about. So, you know, to the extent that you're looking at eliminating thousands of seats at the IRS or the DHS or what have you, that means, you know, less endpoint security, for example.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? Because each of those seats might be, you know, an endpoint or a PC workstation or what have you. Or, you know, you might not need to buy as many firewalls or SaaS seats or what have you. So I I think, yes, longer term, you know, those are all good things, and the federal government certainly has a lot of room to modernize. I think those modernization initiatives take a long time.
Hamza Fodderwala:In the short term, though, if you're eliminating a lot of these people and you're reducing the size of the organizations, ultimately, their nest there's just not gonna need as much IT, which means they're not gonna need as much cyber.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:Yeah. There could be a consolidation, obviously, just following the same trend of if you wear a business hat, which says, hey, multiple organizations are buying these products. How can we bring efficiencies,
Sid Trivedi:conversation over to M and A. And you've touched a little bit around consolidation, but we've seen a relatively active m and a market this year with over $50,000,000,000 of deal volume to date in cyber. And we've seen companies like Juniper, Darktrace, Recorded Future, Synopsys, Venafi, and a whole bunch more that have been acquired. And the year hasn't even ended. You know, the the time of this recording, the year's there's still a few more weeks to go, but it's already that 50,000,000,000 of deal volume is already up from last year's numbers.
Sid Trivedi:So what are the valuation expectations looking like today, and what are buyers looking for in general?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. You know, I think of the m and a market very similar to the housing market. Right? So the the sellers have expectations, the buyers have expectations, and obviously, there's the cost of financing and everything else. And so, you know, I think a big active buyer within cybersecurity historically has been private equity, the financial sponsors.
Hamza Fodderwala:I'd say they've been less active in recent years just given how interest rates have have really increased in the last couple of years. So they certainly have valuation expectations that I think if anything, you know, they're they're not willing to pay the multiples that were in 2020 and 2021. The strategics have been less active. I mean, certainly, we've seen some. We've seen Cisco, Splunk, we saw CyberArk, Medify, and those, you know, buyers tend to pay higher multiples.
Hamza Fodderwala:So, you know, based on our analysis looking at cybersecurity transactions over the last 10 years, strategics have on average paid about 9, 9 and a half times NTM revenue for US cybersecurity companies whereas private equity is paid between 6 to 7 times. So I do think, we are seeing more interest from from both areas within the cybersecurity market. I think what's what changed over last year was perhaps seller expectations. So if you were a cybersecurity company or enterprise software company and you realized, okay, whether you're public or private, the market is not gonna necessarily gonna value, you know, me at the multiple that I want them to, right, if I go public or remain public. There are a lot of investments that or a lot of transformation that has to be done that probably isn't great to be done in the public market view.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? If you're going through, you know, a major product transformation or you're going through some sort of, you know, m and a spree, doing that in the public market where you have to report quarterly earnings is is somewhat difficult. So I do think seller expectations have come down. But at the same time, when you see stock markets tend to decline and, you know, even for larger companies, if their share price is worth 30, 40% less, well, a lot of times they, you know, they use their stock as a currency to buy these companies. So what we've seen, I think, is very much a buyer's market in security and software.
Hamza Fodderwala:The big are getting bigger. Right? If you are a large cap company, $20,000,000,000 plus market cap, you're still trading in a double digit sales multiple. If you are below that, you know, the average multiple comes down to about 6 times sales. So the larger cap companies are the the main driver of outperformance in enterprise software and security.
Hamza Fodderwala:So you still have a favor you still have a high stock, you know, and favorable currency to buy these assets. And then if you are a a smaller SMid cap company, you know, there's some that are still trying to break the sound barrier, right, but are having a a difficult time. So I do think we start to see some of these companies that are 5, 7, 8, $9,000,000,000 in in enterprise value look at saying, okay. Are we ever gonna break that sound barrier to get to 20, 30, 40, 50,000,000,000? I think most of them will realize it's much tougher than realized.
Hamza Fodderwala:And, I think, you know, we'll eventually make that, you know, move to perhaps get acquired by a larger vendor or look at a private equity route. So I do think we start to see a little bit more of that from those bigger companies. Right? So far, the transactions predominantly have been, you know, companies with less than $5,000,000,000 in enterprise value or a lot of private companies that are selling for less than a 1,000,000,000 even, but not as much of those big companies like the Splunks that we saw last year.
Sid Trivedi:And just as a follow-up on that topic, you speak to a lot of these CEOs of these public companies. Are you hearing from them that there is some kind of they are in some ways holding off and waiting for the new administration to come in and then launching more active m and a strategies. Has that been a topic of conversation or, you know, is the card move the the the move that they are playing?
Hamza Fodderwala:I think they all have strategies. They all have, you know, m and a targets that they've looked at. Certainly, this the the last administration, I don't think is any secret, was perhaps, you know, less accommodative in terms of, those transactions happening. And I think there's an expectation. I mean, we'll have to see.
Hamza Fodderwala:Obviously, we just had a new FTC appointed. We'll have to see what what those policies are. But I do think there's a general view that, you know, this new administration may be more favorable towards, you know, that outcome.
Ross Haleliuk:How is private equity shaping the m and a landscape in cybersecurity today? With certain market segments seeing a significant percentage of companies owned by PE firms, what are some of the trends or shifts that you anticipate as we move into 2025?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. I think, private equity has been shaping the cyber m and a landscape in in a lot of ways in the last few years. I mean, if you look at the identity market, you know, Thoma Bravo has been very active there. Endpoint security, email securities. There's certainly been a lot of, interest in cybersecurity.
Hamza Fodderwala:If you think about cybersecurity, these are very, you know, durable companies. Right? They tend to be, you know, high retention rate, very sticky, high margin at scale. They tend to be very good businesses. And so I think, I think from the PE standpoint, they do have a lot of assets that that they acquired in the last 5 years, particularly during that last wave during 2019 and 2022 that I think they're looking to monetize from.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? Whether it's exiting Visa VA IPO or looking to sell them to a larger company. So I I think that there's a there's a bit of a monetization wave that's gonna happen assuming the public markets remain open. And then I think eventually there's gonna be some interest in looking at, you know, some cyber assets, whether public or late stage private that, you know, are ripe for consolidation. So I think, what we're gonna see more from the private equity players going forward is similar to what we, you know, did see with Thoma Bravo acquiring in the identity space.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? They acquired 3 great companies. Some of those companies they'll look to merge, others they'll look to keep standalone. And, I think there's a lot of opportunity to do that in the late stage private and public space. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:I mean, you know, finding maybe a public company and a private company that have overlap, maybe neither of those are going to be viable on a standalone basis longer term. Maybe you acquire those 2 companies, combine them, and in 3 to 5 years, look to spin spin a a bigger public company, right, that could be more palatable for the public markets. And I think we'll see a lot more of that, and there's a lot of opportunity for that. As you know, there's, you know, something, what, like, 7,000 cybersecurity vendors out there and, you know, less than a 100 of them are public. And so I think, there's certainly opportunities for consolidation.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:You know, Hamzah, when we look at, how these consolidation trends are occurring, there's a very interesting pattern that we are starting to see. And we'd love to get your views on how the universe of acquirers is expanding. And let's take the most recent example of, Recorded Future, you know, a company that was acquired by Mastercard. Now Mastercard and cybersecurity not necessarily go in the same sentence, but it was interesting to, as I read and researched this acquisition, that Mastercard was losing something in the range of $5,000,000,000 a year on fraud. And they paid about 2,650,000,000 for recorded future.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:So, you know, if you just do the math in 2 years, that's that could be a reasonably good recovery if it just follows that simple logic. But the fact that a financial entity is losing so much on fraud and then is stepping into saying, we need to do something about cybersecurity, there's a very interesting shift in our acquisitions marketplace. Give us a little bit more from your vantage point on how you see this, shifting.
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. That was a very interesting and unique acquisition for sure. And I think it's I think it really comes down to, you know, 2 things. Is cybersecurity gonna be a source of growth for, you know, companies going forward? I think the answer to that is yes.
Hamza Fodderwala:But then the second point is, is this gonna be synergistic to my core business? And so, you know, in Mastercard's case, right, it sort of checked both boxes. I think other companies we've seen outside of cybersecurity make investments in the past. You know, yes, it's a growth driver. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:It adds some diversification to their revenue stream, but, you know, perhaps it's not as synergistic. Right? So we've seen, you know, defense companies, for example, acquire in the cybersecurity space, recently and in the past. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:We've seen enterprise software companies invest in cybersecurity companies and and, you know, those can be hit or miss as well. So I I do think, there's gonna be that interest. Right? But I think the key question is not just that, hey. This is another business, you know, segment within my broader organization that can maybe be accretive to growth in the short term perhaps, but it's really around how do I integrate this and make this synergistic to what my core offering is.
Hamza Fodderwala:I think Mastercard answered that question with Recorded Future again. And looking within cyber, you know, companies like Palo Alto Networks have done a great job of this as well. You know, making almost 20 different acquisitions in the last five years, you know, some of those were very successful maybe a few of those weren't, but the ones that really were successful were synergistic, were easy to sort of sell into the distribution engine, and, ultimately became much bigger businesses under Palo Alto or, you know, CrowdStrike. Bigger businesses under Palo Alto or, you know, CrowdStrike than they would have been on a stand alone basis. So I think that those, you know, 2 questions are really important to ask to the extent that you are looking to invest in the cybersecurity market.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:You know, you make a great point there, Hamza, about, when you look at how Palo Alto has done, a great point there, Hamza, about, when you look at how Palo Alto has done for almost, 20 plus acquisitions over its time and done a very good job of integrating them very well. On the flip side, you know, the telcos have somewhat of a mixed bag, in terms of, you know, playing this game. I mean, Singapore Telecom bought Trustwave for 800,000,000. This was almost a decade ago. And then recently, they divested Trustwave for, like, about a 130,000,000.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:So, are telcos not well suited to play this game at all, or are there some examples that jump out at you where they've done a very good job?
Hamza Fodderwala:I can't think of any examples of, but, I think, I might be wrong on that front, but, I think, I think it goes back to that earlier point. Right? I think initially, the telcos and I could understand why it was intuitive. Right? I mean, hey.
Hamza Fodderwala:You know, a lot of times telcos are involved in really being a a channel partner for cybersecurity companies. Right? Being an enabler for cybersecurity adoption and just thinking, you know what? You know, why can't we just do this ourselves and get a 100% of the economics? And, I think the logic makes sense.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? But, again, it's is this just gonna be another business segment within your broader organization? Right? Or is this actually gonna be a core pillar of what you're offering? Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:Is this gonna be your core business? Right? Is this gonna be synergistic with your core business? And that question I think is is is more important to answer than just, you know, saying, okay. You know what?
Hamza Fodderwala:We're gonna make this another business segment. We're gonna throw a bunch of money at it and hope hopefully, it sells. No. No. It really has to be, you know, core to your offering for it to be successful because cybersecurity is hard.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? I mean, a lot of enterprise software companies, you know, Microsoft comes to mind, which is the biggest one, and they built a great, you know, cybersecurity business, $25,000,000,000 plus in revenue. But, you know, even even they've had their challenges in certain market segments. And so I think just given how hard security is, you really have to make sure that this is something that, you know, you think about every single day because I can guarantee you, you know, folks like George Kearse from CrowdStrike or Nikesh Arora from Palo Alto Networks or Jay Charter from Zscaler, you know, they're thinking about this 247. They're thinking about how can they win in the market, you know, every single day.
Hamza Fodderwala:And, if this is an afterthought for you, it's gonna be tough to compete. That's a great way
Sid Trivedi:to put it that, you know, cyber can't be an afterthought, whether you're running a business or whether you're using those cybersecurity solutions. I wanna move to the last segment of our conversation and executives of every major cyber incumbent vendor, and you you spoke about a few of those names just now. What insights do you have for do you have for founders on which areas are ripe for disruption and where they should focus their time?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. It's a it's a great question because, I mean, there's some areas that have been ripe for disruption that you wouldn't really think are areas that people have been focused on. So I think it kinda breaks onto 2 categories. 1 is solving new problems, and then I think the other one is solving existing problems that, you know, people haven't addressed for a long time. So I think, the new problems would be areas like we talked about earlier, AI security.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? Coming up with more modern data security, application security products that are gonna be able to solve this new world of securing AI and large language models because I think, there are some bigger companies that are going to certainly try to address this market, but I I think, this is gonna be an, you know, a greenfield area that every Fortune 500 company or, you know, small and large is trying to figure out right now. Every company right now is establishing AI governance boards and trying to figure out how to securely enable this technology. And then the second is, you know, solving existing problems that a lot of people have sort of abandoned. So the one that comes to mind clearly is, email security.
Hamza Fodderwala:I mean, I, you know, covered Proofpoint when it was a a public company, and the number one question you get from investors was, okay. Well, when is Microsoft going to crush them? And, you know, that hasn't happened. Right? But what we've seen, if anything, in recent years is we're seeing, you know, new email security companies come up.
Hamza Fodderwala:You know, abnormal comes to mind, which obviously recently had a had a big raise in valuation round and is now over 200,000,000 of ARR and has done really well in that email security market. Obviously, we still have, you know, Proofpoint out there. In the private space, we've had other email security companies that have raised, you know, money at at pretty, decent valuations recently as well. We we saw Check Point, Fortinet recently acquired in the email security space. So, again, this is a existing area that people just thought was not going to be innovated on and, you know, Microsoft is gonna take that space over.
Hamza Fodderwala:But I think, with AI now with, you know, the increase in phishing attacks, attacks, we're seeing more innovation in this market. I think another area that's been coming up more and more has been this, market for cyber resilience. Right? Whether that's backup and recovery. You know, we've seen some companies go public around that front like a Rubrik, which has done quite well recently, or others.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? So I think cyber resilience, backup and recovery, data management, those are gonna be areas that I think are gonna get more attention, more funding as well. So, again, newer problems, newer attack surface areas that you have to secure, whether it's, you know, AI or elsewhere, and then existing problems that have been sort of left for dead like cyber resilience, like email security. I didn't mention, GRC, governance risk, and compliance, which, you know, we're seeing a lot more investment in. I think AI has a potential to disrupt existing categories and create new categories.
Hamza Fodderwala:So that's where I would I would focus on. Those would be sort of the the broad umbrellas, if you will, that I would really try to focus on if I was a if I was a founder.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:You know, Hamzah, I'm seeing a very interesting dichotomy from my vantage point. I mean, you make absolutely spot on observations about how AI security for AI and AI for security is going to play a very big role. And of course, the Proofpoint Microsoft example, in a parallel world, people joke about Google can solve this problem. But either they don't have the time or the interest. It's not a big enough problem for them.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:And you have the likes of continue to sort of take on the email security problem. The dichotomy I'm seeing is the SMB side of the world. You know, we have interviewed, governor Snyder. He's the former governor of of Michigan. He's now CEO of one of my portfolio companies called Sensei.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:And he's squarely focused on SMB market, which is employees or sizes that are a certain threshold below. I mean, these are too small for the Palo Alto Networks of the world, but they often become the vector, the attack. Like, if you look at the Home Depot story of how this HVAC vendor, a 40 person company, was used as an entry point into some of their point of sale systems. Besides the economic rationale that this is not a big enough market, there is too much churn, what do you think rationale that this is not a big enough market, there is too much churn, what do you think can be done to make that side of the economic landscape more resilient?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. It's a great question. You know, I think, obviously, there there needs to be an education and an investment in sort of, the channels to sell to these, you know, market segments. So I think this is where partnering going back to our earlier question, partnering with the MSSPs, the managed security service partners, is is gonna be really important. And, you know, having sort of managed, services offerings yourselves, I think can also be important.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? Really, like, deploying that technology is one thing, but operationalizing it is the other thing. And I think a lot of, issues with perhaps that market, the SMB market, when you get below a 1000 employees is they don't have the resources to buy and deploy a bunch of these security technologies. Right? Even if they had the budget to spend a 100,000 or 200 1,000 on a security product, you know, them being able to use it is a whole another different story.
Hamza Fodderwala:So how do you reduce that cost to serve, which I think certainly a lot of MSSPs been able to do, but also the cost to operationalize is a big thing. And, you know, most large organizations will have to see so. Nowadays, They might have a head of endpoint security, a head of identity, a head of owner you know, a lot of these organizations don't have a CISO. They have 1, you know, 1 guy or gal who's the head of IT, maybe the head of networking they might have. And then, you know, one of those people get stuck with the security job, and it's obviously a big task.
Hamza Fodderwala:So I think partnering with MSSPs, having managed services, often offerings of your own is gonna be vital if you're trying to address that market. But I think, finding a way to scale that profitably is another challenge and hopefully that's where AI can come in. Right? If you can use the power of generative AI to, you know, offer and solve security problems, I think that could also be a big thing too. I'm thinking for the MDR vendors in particular, you know, that that could be an area where you could see, you know, an AI, SOC as a service, if you will, market start to come up more and more as we as we figure these how to operationalize these technologies.
Sid Trivedi:Very topical because we had Kumar Saurabh right before you on the episode right before you. So very topical for our listeners.
Hamza Fodderwala:I might have gotten the idea from him. So thank you, Kumar. Yeah. But, you know, one
Sid Trivedi:other thing is that kind of the number one cyber analyst on the street, you spend most of your time with these legendary founders, like George Kurtz, like Todd McKinnon, like Jay Chaudhry. Is there a single trait that you see amongst them? I mean, you've probably spent 100 of hours with each of these individuals debating what they're doing from a strategy perspective. Is there something that you see that you're gonna say, like, this is what makes an amazing cyber founder?
Hamza Fodderwala:Yeah. I do have to give a a shout out to Nikesh Arora. He may not be a founder of Palo Alto Networks, but he's definitely founder mode. I can tell you that. I would say they're all very much locked in and they're obsessed with, you know, solving these problems.
Hamza Fodderwala:So, you know, I think of a a George Kurtz, right, and kind of what he's been through in the last, 6 months, with this incident that they had in mid July. You know, he was at the forefront. He was on television the next day, took full responsibility, didn't hide from anybody. He was at Black Hat. He was at his conference.
Hamza Fodderwala:He was at your event at Black Hat as well, Sid. And, you know, this is a person that took on this challenge, a lot of integrity and was, you know, at the forefront and, you know, is living and breathing this stuff, you know, every day. Right? One of the things that I I always find, right, whether it's, you know, George or Cash or whoever, whenever you reach out to them, you send them something, right, they get back to you right away. So they're always on and they're very passionate about solving these problems for their customers and ultimately winning in the marketplace.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? It's a competitive space. So if you're a founder and you believe you have the next $100,000,000,000 cybersecurity company, you wanna have that self belief almost to, like, a delusional level because certainly these these folks not only believe they have the next 100,000,000,000 cyber companies, which some of them have been able to achieve, but they think they can get to 2, 300, maybe a $1,000,000,000,000 over time. So I think, it really just comes down to passion. And I I have to mention, obviously, Jay Chaudhry as well, you know, who is working 247.
Hamza Fodderwala:Right? And you just think of the, you know, where he's come from and what he's been able to achieve. This is a person who's, you know, sold and and started companies several times. So he's not in it to, you know, make a quick dollar. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:He's he's really in it to win and and and and build a a Zscaler into a a much larger company and a company that can endure over time. And so I think, I think that's really the the the one trait that I'll mention from the the CEOs and founders that I'm particularly close to is is all of them, you know, are very passionate, very hardworking, and are always thinking around the corner almost to a paranoid, you know, level, if you will, on how they can be disrupted. Right? So if you're a small cybersecurity company and you're a founder and you think that you can stay under the radar, maybe you can for a little while, but I guarantee you, you know, they will take notice at some point.
Sid Trivedi:Yep. There are over 80 cybersecurity companies that have reached unicorn status, and about 5 of 100 of them have raised over $50,000,000 in venture funding. And despite this, exits are still quite limited. What advice do you have for founders who are raising venture capital in in 2025?
Hamza Fodderwala:Probably a better question for you, but, so maybe you can answer it as well. I mean, it really depends, like, what what stage I'd say, you know, if you're an early stage company and you're solving a problem that will be bigger down the line, but you might not have a distribution, I would just be thoughtful about valuation. Just remember Palo Alto Networks, CrowdStrike, some of these larger cybersecurity companies that you may wanna eventually sell to, these companies have not made acquisitions that are above a $1,000,000,000 in purchase price yet. And, you know, if if they eventually will, you know, it might be something of scale, right, that they can perhaps, you know, is is could be accretive to their growth. So just be mindful that, you know, you might have, you know, the best AI security product in the market, but at at a certain price point, it's more economical for these larger cyber companies to perhaps build a product on their own and compete with the talent that you're trying to compete with as opposed to going out and paying a $1,000,000,000 for for your company that might be great, but it's only 10,000,000 of ARR.
Hamza Fodderwala:And so folks like myself will probably start to question the the prudence of that deal. So I just think be thoughtful about valuation. Right? If you wanna be the next $100,000,000,000 cybersecurity company, right, then perhaps that's a different calculus that you have to make early on. But, I just think, you know, it really depends on on the stage and what your exit is, but just don't take that that big valuation increase without thinking about, you know, what your ultimate exit strategy is.
Sid Trivedi:I couldn't have said it better myself. I think the the factor around really be thoughtful on what is your goal, why are you raising this capital? What's the value of that capital? What are you gonna do with it? And is it a fair valuation?
Sid Trivedi:Just so, so important.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:And then you have, of course, people like Asaf, Adwiz, who have, you know, what the last rumored valuation was $12,000,000,000 or $20,000,000,000 Is that correct, Sid?
Sid Trivedi:Yeah. We don't know what the yeah, there's a round going on right now. But yes, it's potentially a round.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:It's rumored.
Sid Trivedi:That's right.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:So I think that when you fall into that category, obviously, there is this now, you have only one path forward, which is you have to go public because you essentially price yourself out of the market that the 3 or 4 public acquirers could have paid. And if you zoom out a little bit, Hamzah, what are some things take a look at a crystal ball. What are some things we should prepare for in 2025? And we already touched on some of these in earlier parts of our conversation about regulatory changes that are coming. But, you know, if you had to end on optimistic or a positive note, what are some sound bites that come to mind?
Hamza Fodderwala:Sound bites that come to mind of optimism. I think, you know, in that case, just to address, you know, Wiz, I mean, these are folks, whether it's Asaf or or, you know, and and that whole team. Yeah. This is a team that really believes they're gonna be the $100,000,000,000 cybersecurity company. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:So the fact that they, you know, reportedly had an offer from Google at 23 $1,000,000,000 and and were able to walk away from that, I think really shows that. So I think for them, you know, they've been able to, obviously, raise bigger rounds and and, you know, may grow into those valuation rounds. Certainly, the trajectory seems to suggest that. And so more power to them. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:And, we'll we'll see when they decide to make that leap into the public markets. I think signs of optimism is look. You know, technology today is about little over 40% of the S and P 500, and there's no signs of that slowing down. Every organization in the world is trying to play more technology within the organization with when it comes to AI, cloud, you know, what have you. And so I think it's a great time to be in cybersecurity because, ultimately, the more technology you deploy in organization, the more AI you use, you have to secure that.
Hamza Fodderwala:And I think that's gonna open up new threat vectors, which is gonna open up new opportunities. And, you know, ultimately, that that's gonna mean, more innovation in the market. And so I think it's exciting times. I think if you look at the public markets right now, the macro backdrop is is certainly favorable. There's a lot of growth scarcity.
Hamza Fodderwala:I mentioned the public markets. That means that, you know, if you're a company that is 500,000,000 of ARR, 250,000,000 of ARR you're growing fast and you have a a great product, I think this is the time to really go out. And I'd also say, you know, you know, great companies throughout the history of, you know, tech and software usually are born during difficult times or tested during difficult times. If I think about the cybersecurity companies that have come up in the last, you know, 15 or 20 years, whether that's Okta or Zscaler or whoever. Right?
Hamza Fodderwala:These all came up in and around the financial crisis. And so I think, you know, there there's gonna be a a cohort of cybersecurity and tech companies that, you know, could potentially be the next 100,000,000,000, $200,000,000,000 companies of our generation. And we've got this massive compute cycle in AI, which is really driving every organization, large or small, to really rethink their technology architecture and modernize their technology architecture. Because a lot of these folks, you know, still haven't really fully embraced the cloud, You know? And so I think this AI is really gonna be the catalyst for them to, you know, put technology more at the forefront, which means more dollars, for these companies.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:On that on that note, Hamzah, first of all, I wanted to thank you not just for coming today and sharing your insights, but I think you're one of the few analysts that is always accessible. You have this fantastic blend of humility with very deep research and good work that you do. Obviously, your team has been named number 1 now for, what, 6 years, consistently at Morgan Stanley. So your work speaks for itself. But most importantly, Sid, Ross, and I are serving founders.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:These are people that are just getting started. They are sort of in a classic state where very few people care for them. And the work that you do, the insights that you share are extremely valuable for them to plan their journey. So I wanted to say a big thank you. And, of course, as we end our year in 2024, Sid, Ross, and I also want to take this opportunity to thank all our listeners for helping our podcast to become number 1 in 2024 in cybersecurity.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:That's self proclaimed. Is that correct, sir? It's self proclaimed?
Sid Trivedi:It's definitely self proclaimed.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:Well, at least we are one of the few that is focused on cybersecurity, and we're bringing some of the best best brains, the best minds, in the industry to our founders. So on that note, thank you, Hamza. Thank you, Sid. We'll we'll see you in 2025.
Sid Trivedi:Thank you, Hamza, and thank you to our listeners. Thank you for joining us Inside the Network.
Ross Haleliuk:If you like this episode, please leave us a review and share it with others.
Mahendra Ramsinghani:If you really, really liked it and you have some feedback for us, wrap it on a bottle of Yamazaki and send it to me first.
Sid Trivedi:No. Don't do that. Mahendra gets too many gifts already. Please reach out by email or LinkedIn.
